24ct Ducellier Regulator

[keithwwalker]

Can someone explain the connections of the Ducellier regulateur?

DYN (Dynamo) Is the the main power feed?
EXC (Excitation) Is this what 'flips' the polarity during operation?

Also, I trace the wire that feeds the battery (BAT), but it goes into the bulkhead. How does the power get to the battery after this?
Does all the current go to the battery?
How is the charge sensed at the ammeter in the dashboard?

Does anyone have a wiring diagram of the 17 or 24?

Merci!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quelqu'un peut-il expliquer les liens du regulateur Ducellier?

DYN (Dynamo) est la principale source d'alimentation?
EXC (Excitation) Est-ce que c'est ce qui «retourne» la polarité pendant le fonctionnement?

De plus, je trace le fil qui alimente la batterie (BAT), mais il passe dans la cloison. Comment le courant parvient-il à la batterie après cela?

De plus, je trace le fil qui alimente la batterie (BAT), mais il passe dans la cloison. Comment le courant parvient-il à la batterie après cela?
Est-ce que tout le courant va à la batterie?

Comment la charge est-elle détectée à l'ampèremètre dans le tableau de bord?

Quelqu'un at-il un schéma de câblage du 17 ou du 24?

Merci!
_________________
1964 Panhard 24CT

[panhardinateur]

Hello,

the DYN and EXC of the regulator must be connected to the DYN and EXC of the Dynamo.
The BAT is connected to directly to the battery, through the amperemeter.
you may find the wiring diagrams in the workshops manual of the library.

good luck !

[rasec]

Hello,

the Ducellier régulator is specific for the dynamo
it stabilise the voltage and limit the current send by the dynamo

in addition to the workshop Manual(Manuel D'atelier), may be, the drawing (hand made) here under can help you

Jean Paul
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Panhard WL3 tôlée 61, 24CT 65, 24CT66, 504 cab73, traction 11BL54

[panhardinateur]

Hi,

here is an official Ducellier's document (in french ) on the dynamo regulator (here a 6V regulator, but
it's the same principle for the 12V)...

[keithwwalker]

Thank you for your response!
I have a specific reason for the question.
I am replacing the dyanamo with a 'dyanator' (fausse dynamo, ie alternator in disguise).

The dynator is rated to 50 ampere.
The original dynamo has a 25 ampere rating

I wonder if the ammeter can withstand 50 ampere, passing through it?
https://www.classicautoelec.com/fr/false-dynamo-panhard/10796-product.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Panhardinateur & Rasec: Merci pour votre réponse!
J'ai une raison spécifique pour la question.
Je remplace le dyanamo par un «dyanator» (dynamo fausse, c’est-à-dire alternateur déguisé).

https://www.classicautoelec.com/fr/false-dynamo-panhard/10796-product.html

Le dynator est évalué à 50 ampères.
La dynamo originale a une cote de 25 ampères

Je me demande si l'ampèremètre peut supporter 50 ampères en le traversant?
_________________
1964 Panhard 24CT

[rasec]

Hello,
good question !
I start by saying : yes you can!
why?
the total electric consumption of the car running night is Maximun 25 Amp
the dynamo or alternator supply this current, and more, send (normally) a low current to the battery

now, look at my drawing, you can see that during night (maximun consomption) , the current supplyed by the alternator dn't pass throught the ammeter so, the 30 Amp ammeter is enough....!

finally the maximum current drawn by the battery from the alternator, never reach 30Amp, even you use a 70Amp alt. because the battery can not absorb that current under 14V supply.

recharging a battery from a 14V supply:
the voltage of the battery discharged is around 10.8V , this voltage increase quickly if you charge it with a 14V supply , the current asborbed decrease as quickly , so no problem to use any size of alternator and
no need to replace the wires

In my own case I use without restriction any alternator on my Panhard's 30 years ago.

excuse my English! it is not my mother langage
see you
JP
_________________
Panhard WL3 tôlée 61, 24CT 65, 24CT66, 504 cab73, traction 11BL54

[myr415]

Bonjour,

[panhardinateur]

[rasec]

Hello,
Panhardinateur, the ammeter has not to withstand neither 30A, nor 50A, it has only to withstand the differential charge current send by the alternator minus the current drawn by the receivers.
it is different if the engine is not running, in this case the ammeter has to carry the total current drawn by the receivers (as the original car), in that case, only the battery is supplying the receavers and the maximum current drawn is about 25Amp ,
if you are not sure, do the test!
I have only about 50 years of professional expérience in the domain!and when I spoke battery , it is for a capacity about 60AH lead battery for a car , not for a bulldozer!I have never seen a battery of 100Ah in a Panhard! except in an EBR, and I repeat the charge current is under 14V régulated supply, look at the battery theory

on a car fitted with an alternator, there is no charge at constant current, but at constant voltage

because of its construction, the alternator is limited in current, which makes it its main characteristic

and "to make it simple", an alternator supplies only the current that is asked of it.

and if you try to charge a 60Ah lead battery with 30Amp , you need to use far more than 15V and your battery may explode in your face .....!

In the Fabulon system, the ammeter don't measure the battery charge current , the alternator output is directly connected to the battery

after that, everyone does what he want
see you
JP

Panhardinateur, l’ampèremètre ne doit supporter ni 30A, ni 50A, il doit seulement supporter le courant de charge différentiel envoyé par l’alternateur moins le courant consommé par les récepteurs.
il en va différemment si le moteur ne tourne pas, dans ce cas, l'ampèremètre doit supporter le courant total consommé par les récepteurs (comme la voiture d'origine), dans ce cas c'est la batterie seule qui alimente les récepteurs et le courant peut atteindre 25Amp
si vous n'êtes pas sûr, faites le test!
Je n'ai que 50 ans d'expérience professionnelle dans le domaine! Et quand je parle de batterie, c'est pour une batterie au plomb de capacité d'environ 60 Ah pour une voiture, pas pour un bulldozer!(je n'ai encore jamais vu une batterie de 100Ah dans une Panhard ! sauf dans un EBR et je répète que le courant de charge est sous alimentation régulée de 14 V, regardez la théorie de la batterie

sur une voiture équipé d'alternateur , il n'y a pas de charge a courant constant , mais à tension constante .

de par sa construction, l'alternateur est limité en débit , ce qui en fait sa caractéristique principale

et "pour simplifier les choses", un alternateur ne fournit que le courant [u] qui lui est demandé [/ u].

et si vous essayez de charger une batterie au plomb de 60Ah avec 30Amp, vous devez utiliser plus de 15V et votre batterie peut exploser à la figure .....!

Dans le système" Fabulon", l'ampèremètre ne mesure pas le courant de charge de la batterie, la sortie de l'alternateur est directement connectée à la batterie: wink:
après ça chacun fait ce qu'il veut!
_________________
Panhard WL3 tôlée 61, 24CT 65, 24CT66, 504 cab73, traction 11BL54

[panhardinateur]

Hello Rasec,

[rasec]

[myr415]

Bonjour,
Un peu de lecture intéressante (entre autres sujets développés)
https://apso.pagesperso-orange.fr/ducelier.htm
Bonne journée !

[danjamds]

A very interesting discussion.
It should be remembered that most ammeters are in fact voltmeters which measure the voltage across a fixed resistor - the meter just happens to be calibrated in amps. The only danger I can see is that if the battery is totally "flat" then the alternator will produce 50 amps for a short period of time and this is 2x the original dynamo output - the heating effect in the resistor will then be 4x (I squared x R) so it could be damaged/burnt. Maybe the extra heat could be used to demist the windscreen!
On my own car the Ducelier regulator was a problem and I made a number of attempts to adjust it but failed. In the end I found a NOS Bosch unit with the same 25 amp rating (originally for a Fiat 500) and that worked perfectly and is still working. It is a marvellous piece of electrical engineering like something from Faradays laboratory.
Good luck with your conversion.
_________________
John Fletcher in sunny Yorkshire

[24c]

Hi Keith,

Jean Paul is quite right in all he says, and I have the "ammeter" connected in my car, but I remove the connections to the regulator, as you don't need them for an alternator. To simplify the wiring, I use a heavy duty connection from the charging point of the alternator to the starter cable.

Depending on your alternator pin outs, it will have a 12V ignition switch feed, an earth return for a light, and maybe even a battery voltage sensing circuit.

As Jean Paul shows, and as the wiring diagrams do less clearly, the ammeter has connections between the battery and the loads on it, you can still leave this in place. It will flicker to show "discharge", as it does with Brian Osbourne's 24CT fitted with an alternator too. My own 17BT does the same, but I've also fitted the light, which comes on if the belt snaps or before starting.

Like any electrical work, you really need to make sure the existing wiring isn't faulty or damaged. Mine needed extensive bodging removed, and I did hide away some accessible fuses, and add some relays for wiper motors and lighting to reduce the electrical currents through the switchgear.

Mike
_________________
l'imagination est plus importante que la connaissance.

[rasec]

Hello,