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L'injection Electronique
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24c
rang: dyna Z **


Inscrit le: 05 Fév 2013
Messages: 473
Localisation: Chorley, Lancashire, GB

MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 02, 2017 18:06    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Bonsoir totof

Sorry for the English, but I have a little information based on my experiences in the UK, where I am developing a programmable ignition for Panhards.

On the road, in a PL17 Tigre, compression 14 bar, and a single plug per cylinder, I see no advantage in going over 31º BTDC at high T/min 5,500-6,500 on the autoroute. 32º & more is noisy, and 27-30º not as responsive.

However, there is some value in increasing this to 44º at 3500 T/min, as the engine develops more horsepower under wide open throttle with more advance in this area.



At idle, you need at least 21º, and 25-26 is preferable to keep the spark plugs free of "soot" or carbon, but with good spark energy and fuel mixture control, the idle (ralenti) can drop to 500+ T/min at 10º BTDC (aPMH)

Hope this helps
Mike
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totof
rang: dyna Z **
rang: dyna Z **


Inscrit le: 28 Aoû 2007
Messages: 105
Localisation: Montpellier

MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 02, 2017 18:47    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

24c a écrit :

Hope this helps
Mike

Thanks Mike but we just follow the builder curves and the static for the M8S
is 32° BTDC so why going under ? Embarassed
We have seen on the road the effect of the depression, it compensates the loss of rpm related to the increase of the load, it is obvious on our application android when we follow the foot of the driver on the accelerator
In the same way for the M5 and M6-8 we have a static of 17 ° and after the centrifuge
Some tests on the M8S with 28 ° or 30 ° works significantly less well !
The big difference with our current ignition is flexibility at low rpm we are not looking for power, just regain the original characteristics of the vehicle
But in the team some want to go further in the analysis of so my questioning on the value of the max advance before the knock and I don't want to add on the card a knock probe

Can you show your centrifugal and vaccum curves please

Thanks anyway for your info that I also read on other post Wink Question
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24c
rang: dyna Z **


Inscrit le: 05 Fév 2013
Messages: 473
Localisation: Chorley, Lancashire, GB

MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 02, 2017 19:56    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Bonsoir totof,
Citation :
we just follow the builder curves and the static for the M8S
is 32° BTDC so why going under ?


More compression, faster combustion!, so less advance required. Also twin plug per cylinder would does need less in my tests. Smile

I have found that the engine needs/likes lots of advance (inefficient combustion chamber and spark plug position, sorry), and I tune for flexibility too...
I can change into 4th gear at 2000 rpm, and pull slowly from this no problem. Smile

I haven't finished my advance/vacuum (MAP) curves yet, as I make a new toothed wheel for the distributor aka "allumeur", but the fixed advance is stepped 5º to 350 rpm, 22º to 800, 25º to 1200, then fixed 31º to 8000.



Vacuum MAP correction adds up to 12º at various vacuum levels. Zenith NDIX have poor vacuum (MAP) range, so I use a Weber 36-44DCNF or 34ICH plus 1.25-1.5" SU on my engines.

Amicalement
Mike

[/quote]
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totof
rang: dyna Z **
rang: dyna Z **


Inscrit le: 28 Aoû 2007
Messages: 105
Localisation: Montpellier

MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 02, 2017 20:56    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Re

We want to stay in a strictly original configuration, and our tests show a more than satisfactory operation with our current settings

We want to stay in a strictly original configuration, and our tests show a more than satisfactory operation with our current settings

With the original carburetor well adjusted and a careful mounting of the pipe, we get a vacuum amplitude with our sensor 0 to 10 ° on the 38 and an amplitude of 0 to 15 ° on the 36 which seems coherent

Our tests showed a need to have a mechanic in perfect condition, any fault penalizes the electronic ignition when it is for nothing
Embarassed Embarassed

But all this does not answer my questioning on the maximum value of the total advance before knocking Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad

By the way how the software calculates the power
Of the graph above Question Rolling Eyes

Best regards
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24c
rang: dyna Z **


Inscrit le: 05 Fév 2013
Messages: 473
Localisation: Chorley, Lancashire, GB

MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 02, 2017 21:11    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Bonsoir totof

Standard configuration, current setting are the same as 1960s. You take no account of gasoline changes. Smile

With a Zenith NDIX I see 26 kPa maximum pressure change, with a. Weber or SU over 40 kPa, so these make for a more sensitive ignition..but I understand all you say.

Agreed, all things must be in good condition to make the correct conclusions.

Your maximum advance before knocking changes depending on throttle position, fuelling, combustion pressure etc...it is a function of the combustion chamber design, and surface area of the piston. It varies with temperature etc, so you must be cautious. Panhard were so they say 32º at maximum T/min, but they could only ever increase ignition or keep the same with centrifugal systems. Electronic can can up & DOWN to suit the engine characteristics. If I use more than 31 at speed in top gear, the engine gets noisy, and it does not accelerate any better, uphills or downhills, so that is why I have this value. If I change the fuelling, richer mixture than maybe, I can change some more, but it is nothing for flexibility.
The panhard engine has a "hole" in the power curve (Tigre) around 3500 rpm...this is caused by "reversion" in the inlet tracts, and all road tests complained of this in the UK press in the 1960s. This is because the ignition could not decrease its value or change with the system of centrifugal and vacuum.

In the 1990s I fitted the vacuum module on the other side of the distributor on the PL17 Tigre, and it made better running in some conditions...this told then, that the Panhard standard ignition is far from perfect. Today €300 buys a programmable ignition able to get around this problem.

Amicalement
Mike
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totof
rang: dyna Z **
rang: dyna Z **


Inscrit le: 28 Aoû 2007
Messages: 105
Localisation: Montpellier

MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 02, 2017 21:42    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Re

Ok the next Saturday I will discuss with the "specialists" of the group for this
next evolution, if I understood correctly it would be necessary to lower the advance between 3000 and 4500 rpm to avoid the hole at this rpm, it's easy to do with our ignition

Our ignition is fully configurable because we created the source code

But we want to first reliability the operation according to the original settings before modifying the curves to go further

For modern gasoline, 5 and 9 teeth for static were used instead of 4.5 and 8.5
But again in the source code we can easily modify this point

Best regards
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24c
rang: dyna Z **


Inscrit le: 05 Fév 2013
Messages: 473
Localisation: Chorley, Lancashire, GB

MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 02, 2017 22:20    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Bonsoir totof
Citation :
next evolution, if I understood correctly it would be necessary to lower the advance between 3000 and 4500 rpm to avoid the hole at this rpm, it's easy to do with our ignition


No, I think you might want to try more advance around 3500, to compensate for the fuelling abnormalities.

The power curve is a function of the ignition software... it measures the acceleration of the engine, and this is proportional to Torque (couple), so you can derive HP (CV) from this. The value is unimportant, the "shape" of the curve is most important. Smile

Amicalement
Mike

PS Apologies to the majority of the Forum members for the English conversations. :/
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totof
rang: dyna Z **
rang: dyna Z **


Inscrit le: 28 Aoû 2007
Messages: 105
Localisation: Montpellier

MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 02, 2017 22:35    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Re

I note for the increase of the advance

I will find out if I have a way to formulated the power with our data

There I code for the android application, a averaged measure for the total advance and a peak measure to have those two data for processing and subsequent analysis, a request from one of our small group

Good evening (work tomorrow Exclamation Embarassed )

Sorry for this conversation in English but I think it's easier for Mike
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miclot7
rang: PL17 ***
rang: PL17 ***


Inscrit le: 25 Sep 2009
Messages: 967
Localisation: 54 luneville

MessagePosté le: Lun Oct 30, 2017 20:57    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Bonsoir JeanMi
Tu écris par ailleurs:
"Depuis 2013 année de la Z1 dans les Alpes, la voiture a beaucoup évolué. Je ne sais pas si je peux en parler. "

????
Quid? Là aussi la censure passe???
Sad

Je crois plutôt que tes travaux ont été suivis sur ce forum, par beaucoup de personnes très intéressées!!!

Mais il en revient à toi seul de décider si tu communiques ou pas là-dessus!

Mikel
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Dyna Z1 de 1955 & Dyna X 85 de 1951


Dernière édition par miclot7 le Mar Oct 31, 2017 05:46; édité 1 fois
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zenair
rang: dyna Z **
rang: dyna Z **


Inscrit le: 19 Mai 2008
Messages: 112
Localisation: Savoie

MessagePosté le: Lun Oct 30, 2017 22:28    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

OK Michel, je vais parler de ce que j'ai fais sur la Z1, mais comme on sort du sujet de l'injection, je vais créer un nouveau sujet. A suivre...
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